Dialogue For Diversity

Report on Visitation of Armagh Diocese

The following notes were taken by Frank Brady, s.j., at the public meetings of the Visitation Group of the Armagh Diocese. The meetings were led by: Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, Baroness Hollins, Msg Mark O'Toole.

Meetings were held in Drogheda, the Carrickdale Hotel, Armagh and Cookstown and are listed in that order. To view the report on any single meeting click on the name of the meeting on the line above.

Public meeting with Card. Cormac Murphy O’Connor and team.

Drogheda 11 January 2011

(I missed the first 25 mins. When I arrived the lady Psychiatrist, Dr Sheila Hollins who is accompanying +Cormac M. O’C was just finishing. The M. C. facilitator, Msg Mark O’Toole, pardon if heads down writing, taking note of what said, reminded us of the three questions that Card Murphy O’Connor left us with, which were something like these:

1. What in the past in the Church has hindered dealing with the abuse q. What was it in the culture of the Ir Church that allowed it to be hidden?

2. What is your understanding about what has been put in place by way of rules for dealing with the safeguarding of children? Are they robust enough?

3. What would be your hopes for the future in terms of renewal of the Church in the Diocese of Armagh and the Church as a whole?

Then people were given a few mins to buzz together with the person(s) beside them and after that a show of hands was invited to indicate those who wanted to be heard. Then people were invited to speak one after another and a response from both +Fr. Murphy O’C and from Dr. Hollins were promised at the end. What was said from the floor was short and to the point. These are some of the notes I jotted down:

• One spoke of arrogance, love of power, a feeling of superiority hindering, this man called for more collaborative ministry at all levels.

• Another called for attention to be paid to what modern behavioural science has to say about power groups / those in authority being unable to believe / admit the wrong done. ‘Group thinking’(?) how it works and how it can be dealt with.

• Take real account of women. See / acknowledge the disenfranchisement of women.

• Individual Psychiatry recognises personality & psychiatric dysfunction. There also exists organisation dysfunction. Perhaps we are dealing with what amounts to organisational psychosis in the Church.

• One thing in common in all that has gone wrong in Ireland: The Architecture of Hierarchy is unfit for purpose. This must be recognised, analysed and rectified.

• We are Church, We have a worldwide problem, this is happening all over the world and as a way of institutional reparation the Pope should resign.

• The Church has gone from the Gospel, there has been arrogance and denial, but not just in the Church. There has been denial all through Irish society. We have ignored what we well knew was happening. There has been widespread cognitive dissonance, similar to that employed in Nazi camps, in order for us to live as though life were normal.

• Going forward there must be a reform of governance and accountability. The voice and authority of the laity has to become a reality. The laity must be represented at the highest level in the Church.

• We should not look at the Church in isolation. Child abuse was covered up everywhere and in all sections of society. A central part of the problem was wanting it fixed within the Church, (isolating the Church from Ir society.)

• There was a call (repeated a number of times by others ) to broaden the scope of the visitation. Look at the shallow depth of faith, of religious education. Look at governance. Bishops need to start giving good leadership. The bishops conference is dysfunctional, secretive, ineffectual. Reduce the number of bishops.

• We need to restart the Church, base it now around faith based experience. R.C. Christianity has been based around the law. This needs to change. We need to re-educate our selves around our humanity, the role and place of sexuality in human life. We need to be enabled to deal with our human problems openly. There is a need for re-education in this whole area.

• Married priests are needed. Garrett Fitzgerald was quoted: ‘if the bishops had had children of their own they would not have reacted as they did’.

As feedback Dr Hollins noted: ‘arrogance’ ‘silence’ ‘collusion’ ‘inability to speak’ ‘faith based on law’, ‘lay people need to be empowered, N.B. women’. ‘Lay people could provide expertise needed at all levels, implying inefficiency / incompetence in the past’. ‘Acts of atonement needed’

+ Cormac Card.Murphy-O’Connor: Thanks for being honest and courteous. Remarked on the sense of gratitude and openness he saw in the people in Peru. We have over sacramentalised and under evangelised the Church. Spoke of pain of survivors, also had been with Pope in Britain, his horror, and determination it will not happen again. We need to develop a Church where everyone has a part to play. Priest not a solo artist rather the leader of an orchestra.

Public meeting with Card. Cormac Murphy O’Connor and team.

Carrickdale Hotel 12 January 2011

Fr. Mark outlined the process, here to listen, checked were media present.-No. No cameras , no tape recording please.

+C. M.-O’C: here to listen, horror, pain, shame, shattered lives, shattered people.

3 questions outlined.

Dr Hollins: Again outlined her position, her story etc that brought her here. Here to listen and help the Cardinal make his report to Holy See.

Fr. Mark: pardon if heads of self and Dr H. down writing, taking note of what said, Time to buzz, then show of hands, who wants to speak; people invited to speak.

• There are capable lay people in parishes but the hierarchy is not listening, Card Brady, Bish Clifford are not listening. When people are not being listened by her hierarchy there is a problem.

• There are great priests but the hierarchy is the problem. Brendan Smith, Card Brady interviewed in ’75, he was not stopped till ’94. Fr Fortune, some of his victims committed suicide. In 1990 a delegation came from Rome and reported back that people here were exaggerating. The Church needs to wake up and smell the coffee! Both the State and the Church are a disgrace. Why are the tax payers paying 90% of compensation?

• Person has some professional knowledge of prob. Need to recognise we are all part of the problem. How possible?: the biggest barrier was our inability to believe such a thing was possible. There are two problem groups in the Church, those who see it as an anti Catholic conspiracy, those who believe the priests are all the same, all abusers. There were 2 reasons: the culture of secrecy / deference to the priest and there were no procedures in place and no understanding of the consequences of abuse and no understanding of paedophilia.

• Now the procedures are in place but there is a need for religious people to be involved in multidisciplinary teams on this problem, the church seems to want to go it alone, again. Praise for the role of the media.

• 3 questions were given to us, but there should be a 4th: Canon Law. Canon law gave protection to the abuser, it superseded Common Law. Burn Canon Law.

• How could it go on for so long? The church is hiding behind the idea of not knowing, not understanding. False. People always knew how awful child abuse was. The Church hid it because it could.

• The Church needs to get real. Power, secrecy and control were used. People feared the priest. Historically the Irish are shy and sneaky. Need to look at the role of women in the Church, amid the ermine, pomp and ceremony. The hierarchy don’t listen. Card Brady & Bish Clifford written to but letters not answered.

• What prevented abuse being dealt with? The exclusion of the laity, an isolated insular Church making decisions behind closed doors. We need a married clergy because family and children can be great teachers. Abhorrence of the Vatican ignoring Murphy.

• Fear and respect for the clergy. Secrecy, amounting to the big lie, akin to what Wiggery said. A priest who pointed to abuse was told to ‘go and say his prayers’, then sent to a parish. He never got an apology. We need the truth, Those who covered up should resign.

• How can we move on when there are people in the hierarchy who covered up? The question arises is this listening process just more window dressing? Hoping we are being listened to but will we hear anything back?

• The Pope needs to know that in Ir History we were taught not to question. That is part of the problem. Have no longer a shred of confidence in the hierarchy. There is a lot of ambition. Priests look for richer parishes for selves. Feel abandoned by the hierarchy. Were taught ‘ the greatest of these is love’ and lived by it, but where was the love for those injured by abuse?

• The problem is authoritarianism. The hierarchical Church ‘knows all’, the laity know nothing. There was a great fear of being knocked by authority.

• Like the Taoiseach, the Cardinal is unable to really apologise.

• There needs to be triennial audited reports of how the guidelines are being followed and they need to be published. Feedback to the People of God needed. There was no real apology from the Pope, no acceptance of responsibility. When a priest was recently removed the people were spoken down to and then left, no support. And the Church closed ranks. Dr Diarmuid Martin’s speech in Ballyfermot seen as a sign of hope.

• The problem is male domination. 50% of people given no responsibility. Women must be significantly represented if there is to be change. Look at the Anglican Church, not the same level of abuse. We need a married clergy. The case of Bruno Mulvihill, Norbertine who tried to blow the whistle on B Smith, to bishop, to Nuncio. Not listened to, left Church. Now dead. We need change but it will not happen during this pontificate, not during my lifetime.

• Why go through all the safeguarding reps? Why not say simply report to the Garda?

• We must not forget the other victims, namely those whose faith has been damaged, and priests who have all been tarred with the same brush.

• There is still a powerful lack of humility and honesty.

• There is a danger that Parish Pastoral Councils will be a barrier between those in authority and the majority of the laity.

• Women are not being listened to. There is the question of what the Vatican means by institutional renewal.

Dr Hollins outlined some of the things mentioned. Lack of confidence in the hierarchy, disappointed at not being listened to, let down; insular clergy, making decisions behind closed doors; paedophilia not understood in past; concern that Church still not referring to Gardaí; Canon Law superseded Common law; Celibacy, male dominated Church, married clergy; learn from myths such as ‘all clergy are abusers & media is anti-catholic,’ involve laity, women; Need truth, love affection, humility; Jesus to be found outside the walls; have written down many more things, what you have said will be thought about.

Card M. O’Connor: Thanks for being honest and courteous. spoke of pain of what he heard, it was hard to listen. Popes horror, and determination it will not happen again. Acknowledgement that priests have felt the pain. The commitment of those present to renewal in the Church, which amounts to a desire for real ‘communio’, All here to serve, Priest not a solo artist rather the leader of an orchestra. Change has started, all said shows love of the Church, open, honest & hope for renewal; for a vibrant Church where lay people play their active part. And more.

Public meeting with Card. Cormac Murphy O’Connor and team.

Armagh City Hotel 13 January 2011

Fr. Mark O’Toole outlined the process, here to listen, may be some media present.-No. No cameras , no tape recording please.

+C. M. O’C: here to listen, horror, pain, shame, shattered lives, shattered people.

3 questions outlined.

Dr Hollins: Again outlined her position, her story etc that brought her here. Here to listen and help the Cardinal make his report to Holy See.

Mark O’Toole, reminded us of the three questions that Card Murphy O’Connor left us with, which were something like these:

1. What in the past in the Church has hindered dealing with the abuse q. What was it in the culture of the Ir Church that allowed it to be hidden?

2. What is your understanding about what has been put in place by way of rules for dealing with the safeguarding of children?

3. Are they robust enough?

4. What would be your hopes for the future in terms of renewal of the Church in the Diocese of Armagh and the Church as a whole?

Fr. Mark: pardon if heads of self and Dr H. down writing, taking note of what said, Time to buzz, then show of hands, who wants to speak; people invited to speak.

• Culture deficit? -Governance, Inadequate structures and governance. Important to remember that it was the secular media that revealed the crimes. Important part of the problem was deference to the clergy. No safeguarding procedures were in place.

• Hopes: a genuinely collaborative Church where you are allowed to voice your opinion. A Church that gets back to ‘the Nazarene’. If Jesus were here would he not say: ‘where are the girls?’ We need to get back to basics.

• Get back to Christ. Teach the 10 commandments. All we need is good leaders.

• The problem was Governance. Also the Church had to be perfect so it couldn’t be human and show its frailty.

• Re Procedures: There is now abuse in another area, priests are removed when accused and not reinstated when cleared by the civil courts. There is very little pastoral care for priests. Our Church should be a place where sinners are welcome, the outcast, prostitutes & gays were mentioned. Jesus welcomed the outcasts. where women had their place

• There is a lack of natural justice towards accused. In Armagh during the troubles priests were pillars of support for those suffering –remember that.

• Part to the cause was a culture of arrogance, with notable exceptions. Priests were on a pedestal and demanded to be. This bred a culture of secrecy. There was no way to show feet of clay.

• More info on the procedures, please. The procedures with regard to accused teachers is clear, not clear in the Church. There should be more input from women. More humility and honest.

• Card Murphy O’C will do a good job. Badly hurt form post traumatic stress from abuse. It was hard t get justice, felt had no where to go.

• 1st time previous speaker has asked for help from the Catholic church. At that time there was no separation between Church and State. Put into a mental unit. If you want forgiveness do you not ask for forgiveness? 1st time has had the opportunity to speak.

• 3 priests asked to stand down, all acquitted, one reinstated, one waiting v long and left the church, 3rd still waiting. This is abuse.

• Priest tried to stop abuse and suffered terribly as a result. The Church’s reaction to criticism is to start a process of blame; blame secular society, blame the media, blame the gay community, blame women… It was secular society which blew the whistle. STOP BLAMING. Priests are not the only ones who abuse, look at Drogheda Hospital… Abuse of women, abuse of young boys, never faced with their crimes.

• The way forward: openness and honesty, and make disclosure a statutory obligation.

• Priests should form a union. Not going to ans the question about cause. Everyone knows the cause, why ask us? You know the cause.

• Walked away from the Church at 16. came back. Get things right, afraid that son of 16 will not return!

• Q to Dr Hollins, Which side are you on? On the side of the Church or the survivors? It is still going on. Knew nothing of it till married. Wife suffers continuously, sickness, and more, can do nothing about her suffering, awful! HELP THE VICTIMS.

• Here to help a previous speaker, brought her back to the her religion. She was sent to England, Dr Hollins, she continuously says: ‘ I am treated like a piece of dirt’. Three things are needed, the 3 Rs: Remembrance, Recognition, Respect.

• Welcome to Armagh. Our education system did good at great cost. Thank heavens our parents generation are dead. If they were alive they would suffer too much from the Church they loved so much.

• What is needed to renew our Church: Prayer, adoration, & the Rosary.

• We need change from the top down. Priest accused and banished. Suppressed from the top. Establish a v clear link where those who are abused can bring complaints, a simple chain of reporting.

• Have had Letter from the Holy Father. Vat 11 needs to be understood, we need to understand the Church as she describes herself. We need to distinguish between teaching like Vat 11 and prudential judgements by pope and bishops. The Church needs professional lay people to ho help bishops.

• Procedures for priests who are not found guilty are unjust. Structures of governance are inadequate. The structures of clericalism led to arrogance. Abused people spoke and got little attention. There is little care for victims. There is inadequate pastoral care fro survivors and for priests.

Feedback.

Dr Hollins: Procedures for priests who are not found guilty; structures of governance are inadequate; structures of clericalism -> arrogance; abused people spoke, little care for survivors, inadequate pastoral care for survivors & for priests; we are a Church of sinners. Q was asked: whose side am I on, survivors or Church? Ans given – we are all the Church, members. Give us strong leaders, be honest. Priests were important during the Troubles. The young will walk if not careful; Remembrance, Recognition, Respect; qualified professionals should be engaged to help the bishops.

Card Murphy-O’Connor: (Short note):Thanks for being honest and courteous. Popes horror, and determination it will not happen again. We need to develop a Church where everyone has a part to play. Priest not a solo artist rather the leader of an orchestra.

Cookstown 14th January 2011

Intro by Fr Mark, ‘here to listen’. Followed by a word from Card Murphy O’Connor & Dr Hollins.

Questions for reflection from Cormac Card. M.-O’C

1. What in the past in the Church has hindered dealing with the abuse q.

2. What was it in the culture of the Ir Church that allowed it to be hidden?

3. What is your understanding about what has been put in place by way of rules for dealing with the safeguarding of children?

4. Are they robust enough?

5. What would be your hopes for the future in terms of renewal of the Church in the Diocese of Armagh and the Church as a whole?

Dr Hollins: things that influenced her decision to accept Cardinal’s invite; mature involvement on part of adult people is needed in the Church; We are part of the People of God; Women’s voice needs to be heard; has 1st hand knowledge of people who experienced trauma from her own family. Abuse that happens has devastating consequences. The pain is often hidden and so harder to perceive for selves and for families. Problem is made worse by silence and secrecy. Wants to look for signs of hope.

Mark repeated Card’s 3 questions. Pardon if heads of self and Dr H. down writing, taking note of what said.

• Welcome to Cookstown. Why it happened: people afraid to get into bother. It was a Victorian Society; People would not be believed; A men’s club, looked after their own. Church was vulnerable to be infiltrated by paedophiles.

• Procedures are too robust now, priests are scared to have anything to do with children.

• It happened because priests and nuns were dominant bullies. Rome took the power and said “don’t go to the police.” Hates the Church now! Hurting badly. The Church said paedophilia was the same abomination as homosexuality. Homosexuality is not an abomination. We said to our children ‘have nothing to do with them’. Stop male dominant bullies! Unless you do the Church will die. Women now don’t want to know!

• Priest was seen as closest to God, that’s the cause. Investigate accusations through the social service and the police, don’t leave in limbo. Be fair, be open, be honest. This happened on the pope’s watch. Be fair, be open. Get it all out into the open NOW.

• Lack of communication is the reason it happened. There has been suppression of communication around the problem. The general church members need more, a lot more communication around the existence, content and practice concerning the procedures. We need more communication around the faith. We have listened, we must be listened to, the laity must talk if we are to have a Church at all.

• It is difficult to go to mass. Why does the church not investigate, why does it have to be dragged out. Call in the National Association of Exorcists. There has been collaboration with evil in the Church. The pope must open up all the files. The College of Cardinals should go. Listen to the laity.

• Surprised to be asked. The Church is knowledgeable, especially about women! The Church couldn’t even start to understand the anger of women, the way parents feel. We grew up steeped in shame and guilt. There was no happiness in it. In order not to be embittered has had to read and study. We are the body of Christ. Are we ever consulted?

• Will be brief. Pay attention to young people. People suffered under an oppressive system, it is now time for change. The Church is dying. Those in power share the blame. 2½ minutes to speak given to people who have never had a chance to speak!! There was enthusiasm during Vat 11, but controlled by ‘those who knew better’. This is an opportunity, but we only have a short time.

• Knew of abuse through work as Social Worker, left job because of all the pain of listening to abused. It was too hard. Q. what was it in the Irish culture? Wrong question. Not just Ir. Culture. It is the culture of the Church all over the world, a culture of power and domination. Need a root and branch reform. We need married priests and women priests. Look to the liberation theology of Latin America. Priest and Church have been tied to the State. The Church needs to identify with the people.

• Priests are aloof, attached to the better heeled. The laity must get involved, they must be got involved. Need good leadership.

• Is the role of women being adequately considered? Why not women deacons? Women are ½ of the human beings. We all need training.

• Culture? The priest on a pedestal. Change those in senior management. Too old. As we get older change becomes harder. Senior management needs to be replaced. When you want a change of culture in an organisation you change the management.

• There has been a conspiracy of silence – also among priests. Would love to know what priests think. Bishop Martin used to speak out, no longer does, why? Can’t have those responsible for mess in charge of reform.

• Born a catholic,- devastated! Left because no hope. These revelations are destroying the faith. The church only concerned about protecting reputation. The Church as it is is defunct. Bring it all out now.

• Knew of abuse in a boarding school. Young people would not be believed then. There are no young people here tonight. They’ve gone. There have to be married priests, women have to be involved. Card Brady has to go. Knew what he knew for years. Lost all credibility, tarnished. Sad reflection when a cardinal has to be asked to go. Priest home from abroad said: ‘forget the Church, concentrate on the Kingdom.’

• Met people in prison who had been abused. Young man. Felt incapable because of being a priest. He had to break the law to be listened to. Old man, on knees, rosary, felt an intruder, offered a bag of sweets. Acquitted. Felt so humbled. This going on since ordained. Found Jesus in these two instances.

• Very nervous now. From small farm, no identity, only had the Church, thank Church for giving us our identity. The enemy is within. – silent – not violent. Innocence was desecrated, beauty destroyed. We would never have gone to the police. Understand the silence.

• Now we have new lepers – the priests who abused and their families. You pray for the survivors. The parents of abusers deserve your prayers. Till the Church takes in the lepers it will not be the Church of Jesus.

Dr. Hollins’ response:

• Culture of silence, afraid to speak out, Victorian, culture of dominant bullies; abused people need to be believed; women have to be taken seriously, don’t want to see their children going up in shame; Has this increased mental illness.

• Procedures – not well understood; Church should have independent investigation & not leave accused in limbo; be fair & be seen to be fair.

• Future: Communication, all info must come out quickly; evil in the Church /Vatican /hierarchy. Communication must be 2 way, not just from on high; Church must identify with people.

• Change: Change senior management; Card Brady damaged; confidence in him damaged; reach out to all the lepers; when one part of the church hurts all the Church hurts; Training needed to give lay people competence and confidence.

Card M-O’C. Short note: Listened, spoke of pain of survivors; Had been with Pope in Britain, his horror, and determination it will not happen again. Will report.

End